My mates joined a guild to raid. When they did so, they clearly stated in their application that they couldn’t raid Friday nights, as this night was already taken to play with other mates (like me). However, they would offer up any spare places in our 10 man raids to their guildies that were at a loose end.
Turns out two of my mates are 2/3 of the best dps in the guild and knowing my mates, the rest of them would be in the top of their fields.
This is sort of beside the point though.
The problem they are facing has been accentuated over the last 2 weeks with me doing 25 man Naxx.
You see, their guild doesn’t have enough to field a 25 man group, and they refuse to pug the extra numbers.
They can field about 16 on any given night, so too many for a 10 man, yet too few for a 25.
They won’t pug the extra 9 for one reason.
Competition for loot.
Now my mates and I have a fairly long history of pugging to fill our raids. During TBC the best we could ever field was 8, but for most of the time it was 6-7, when it was 6 you could bet it was a different person missing on any given week. The pughera themselves normally changed every week. Occasionally we would get one to stay for 2-3 weeks, but we were casual, offering casual pug places.
Thing was, as frustrating as it could be breaking in new raid members (often 1st time raiders) and watching dreamed of loot going to someone we would never see again…
We got to see Kara!
Now my mate’s guild don’t want to loose the loot to puggers, but does that mean they don’t want to see 25 man Naxx, or any of the 25 man loot?
I’m not sure what’s worse. In fact I would assume that they would be more likely to at the very least pick up regular puggers, if not new guild members.
Surely they could introduce a roll modifier. ie: guildies roll 20-100 and puggers roll 1-100.
This would:
- Increase the chances of keeping loot in-house, and
- Increase the likelihood that the puggers join the guild to increase their chance at loot.
Anyway, what do you think…
- Better to raid with a 2/5 chance the loot goes outside the guild?, or
- Better to forget about the content?
Gnomer and Out!
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http://gnomeaggedon.net/2009/04/24/is-it-better-to-raid-with-pugs-than-not-to-raid-at-all/
Seriously, since Naxx is puggable anyway I can’t see the big problem with pugging the missing spots. You have to be fair about the loot distribution though and make it clear to everyone from the start. And as you say – see it as a recruitment activity!
If it was Ulduar though, I wouldn’t think about pugging it. The first boss is puggable, but if you want to get further, I think you need guild members that you can rely on and some long term commitment.
When we pug folks we make it clear that they cannot take patterns, recipes etc from our guild if that particular item is needed. BOE items go to our guild bank if not needed by anyone at that time, so no rolling on those items.
No one loves to pug thats for sure but we as a guild are incomplete without them. I can tell you I wouldn’t pug if my odds of winning an item were reduced. That being said if I ran with a guild that said we won’t let you roll on a specific item because a guidie needs it, I’d be fine with that. THere is lots of stuff to roll on in Naxx. If a pug is only wanting that specific item, they can pug elsewhere.
Pugs should not hold less value for their effort. Its a mutual need that is occurring, we need them as much as they need us. Not to raid because you don’t want pugs is a little silly unless all 16 members agree with it. I think guildies would get frustrated and go elsewhere.
There ya go..my two cents for the day.
Oh and in case anyone forgot…ITS FRIDAY>>>WOOT WOOT
‘I might not get any of the loot that drops, so I don’t want to go’.
I really can’t understand this way of thinking.
Don’t we play this game for fun?
Loot = access to more content, nothing more than that.
What if you had a full raid, and every single drop was something you couldn’t use anyway?
Looking at it from a purely ‘zomg epixxx’ viewpoint, if you don’t go, you get no loot.
If you go with puggers, you have say 50% chance to get loot.
50% vs 0%? and don’t forget you get badges for killing bosses, too.
My only reason for not pugging current content (as opposed to out of date stuff like BT etc), is the people you may end up pugging with.
Obviously a pug is going to find it a lot harder to progress than a team of people playing together every week.
At the same time, you are not talking about a pug you find in Trade channel, you are talking about a group of people, most of whom you already know, and the people you pick up to make the rest of the numbers up should be coming out of your friends lists. No M&S ninja types.
My advice is, tey it and see what happens. If it sucks, then fine, you only lose a few hours of your life!
I think you can spot bad pugs pretty quickly. When I say bad I simply mean inattentive, doing white damage, creating drama etc. I think these people should get a quick kick from the raid after 1 warning. The point is not to carry a pug through an instance but make it possible to get a group in there that can bring the pain.
I think it is better to pug. This is from someone who pugs all of his raids because I cant make any of the guild times due to RL obligations. There is plenty of loot to go around, and the item you want will drop again. Guild mates can leave and take loot just like a pug, except it hurts more.
PuG away!
My tiny little guild generally can field 7 people towards a raid, so we’re always picking up at least 3 people for 10 mans, and we organized 25-man VoAs prior to 3.1.
Right now, we’re working towards having 10 Naxx on farm and have 1 item on reserve – our DK really wants Death’s Bite. All other items are open roll for main spec, second roll for off spec if no one wants, then open roll on shards at the end. BoE items are main spec roll first, open roll for sale if no one needs it. We do ask that only people interested in continuing to Maly roll on the Focusing Iris.
Last week’s Naxx 10 we had a priest from outside the guild get 7 drops. (He wasn’t being a greedy bastard, our other clothies already had the pieces or they would have been sidegrades to us and upgrades to him.) Our joke is that we gear other guilds. It’s a little painful, but there’s always next week.
Besides, now I’m on the friends list of a decently-geared priest and get invited into his guild runs.
I joined the guild i am in now about a year ago. For the majority of that time, the guild leader’s thoughts were exactly as you have stated, he simply would not pug. I rose in ranks, and eventually started running raids and finally convinced him that we had to start pugging (pre WOTLK) because we would never have enough for a full guild 25 man run.
Long story short.
As soon as we start pugging, more guildies who were not previously raiding decided to. The spam in LFG and trade that we were looking for pug members increased our guild’s presence, and because of that, we often recruited the pugs that joined and did a great job. We even teamed our guild up with another guild in similar size and situation.
As for losing loot to a pug, that shouldn’t be a concern. If you’re running your guild through a raid as often as possible, you’re gonna get geared. If your not running.. well, you won’t get squat.
I understand the concept of not wanting to lose loot to pugs, but do they not understand the concept if they don’t go they have no chance? And like you say then at least you get to see it. If nothing else they get emblems and that’s the argument I would use.
If it weren’t for PuGs, I’d never have seen Naxx. My guild is just a hangout for a few friends who enjoy seeing the content, but for whatever reason, don’t want to be in a larger guild. We’ve been in that situation where we’ve geared up a pugger and never seen them again, sure (and we adjusted loot rules for the next run to at least ensure that other people got a chance to get something )… but we can also say that we’ve seen and even cleared the content…on two separate toons in my case.
Once a person has run with us, they generally get added to the invite list for the next week. We’ve done it long enough now that we have a decent sized list of potential participants so that even if we don’t get enough sign-ups, we can usually fill out the raid with people that we know, or at the very least, with people from the guilds of our group members.
Tonight my third toon (yeah, that one, the naked troll) gets his first shot at the place. We have 7 signed up. Not sure who will be in those other spots, but at least we get to go. 🙂
While I am not a huge fan of PuGs myself, if that is how I’d get a chance to see content I otherwise wouldn’t be able to… hell yeah.
Loot is, loot. /shrug Sure, there’s stuff I want, but I’d rather be able to say I missed out on winning a piece than to have never gotten so close to it.
IMO, a raid ID unused is a raid ID wasted. If your guild can’t do 25’s, ask your GM if it’s ok to pug one or two, and explain that by pugging them you have a chance to get loot, and this loot could help the guild in guild runs.
My guild has nicknamed Monday “Pugday” because it’s the day before raid ID resets and if you’re unsaved to a raid, go ahead and pug it, unless we’ve been lazy buggers for the week and haven’t killed KT or something.
Another option is to partner with a guild (that they know) who’s in a similar situation that way they aren’t really running PUGs.
My feelings on drops are if you run you should have a chance to roll on it whether you are part of the guild or not. My Horde toons are in a guild that do have enough people so PUGs aren’t really an issue. Occasionally we’ve filled a role with someone that no one knows but that is rare but they had a chance to roll on loot too. They contributed to the run just like everyone else and the guild wouldn’t have been able to make that run without the PUGS.
The gear most likely will drop again, and everyone will eventually get the gear needed. People play for various reasons. Sure new gear is nice but it’s definitely not the reason I play.
I understand where they are coming from, in that it can be painful if Betrayer of Humanity drops, and the afk dual wielding warrior who already has one, keeps dying to void zones wins it over a roll from a guildie. (which I have actually seen happen)
For some people, they would rather never see the loot drop than have someone undeserving (either factually or in their view) win it over them.
I think the problem can be solved pretty well for a full naxx run using the following rules however, which I used to use for weekend guild alt + pug raids.
Naxx 25
2 Mainspec Rolls, only consumed when you win the item over another person.
(e.g. if you’re the only one who rolled, it doesn’t get consumed, if you rolled but lost, it also doesn’t get consumed)
Offspec items go on a round robin, if you get an offspec item this time round, another person will get the item next time.
This solves a lot of issues, at least until Kel’Thuzard.
It ensures that undergeared people will get as many gear as they want if no one else wants them, as well as preserve the value of highly sought after items for people willing to save their 2 mainspec rolls.
Better to pug.
My alts guild does, they might have 7-8 for a 10 man or 12 for a 25 man plus 4-5 people who used to be in the guild or are friends of people in the guild plus 7-8 pugs from trade/lfg channel.
1 shot KT 25 last three weeks, Pugged Uldaar 10 first three bosses and Uldaar 25 1st boss.
[…] after asking the question the other day, Is it better to raid with pugs, than not to raid at all?, the answer has to be […]
@Larísa: I get the feeling you have been busy lately… I am flat out.
While I agree with you about Naxx vs. Ulduar puggability… if it is the difference between seeing 25 man or not… probably worth taking the chance.
And yeah.. think of it as a recruitment activity and worries about loot disappear.
@Cathy: yeah clear loot rules rool! Having pugged in another guilds run to get dkp (which I never got to spend, as it was a one off) and pugged in a guild run that allowed /roll (with restrictions), I’m all for letting puggers roll.
@*vlad*: “Don’t we play this game for fun?”. Agreed. I got to see Naxx 25, probably wont again, but it’s more than my mates because their guild wont pug the extra spots.
After running 10man ove this last weekend, I now know there is a significant difference in loot to.. both quality and quantity. You are more likely to miss out in a 10 man than a 25 man I think (in the long run anyway)
And yeah… don’t forget those badges… badges you don’t get in 10 man!
@Cathy (again): Yeah, kick them early if they are providing no benefit and will compete for gear (or at least tell them there is a minimum performance requirement to be able to roll)
@Darraxus: Ultimately the reason it hurts the guildy more is because “they desrve it”, but in reality, without the pug they would never have had the chance at the loot.
@Arioch: Yeah reserve items sound like a good idea (stated up front), and after my Naxx10 over the weekend where we formed 5-6 members of the raid, I think we did fine (Well I did fine 😉 )
As for friends lists… most of the folks on our run are now firmly in our friends list… except that Hunter…
@Feight: It all sounds win-win… well done on puching the idea I am happy the results were great!
@kyrilean: Good arguement! I must admit I don’t understand why they don’t just go… if they did it once, I bet they would do it again.
@repgrind: Proof positive that it is worth pugging the extras… and your “alts” remind me.. guild don’t care so much if it is an alt that gets geared, but don’t under any circumstances let the outsider pick up the gear.
As for your naked trolls.. apparently we are related…
@Syrana: “I’d rather be able to say I missed out on winning a piece than to have never gotten so close to it.” Great attitude to have… and it would be the same if you lost it to a guildy or not.
@Dongolev: “IMO, a raid ID unused is a raid ID wasted.” Nuff said!
@Moondancer: Funnily enough, I am more shy or guild “alliances”. I think things tend to go astray when guilds start sharing… tensions rise, players leave… I dunno… maybe just some bad guild experiences.
@Sherry: Ohhhh, that would have been an occasion to walk away from the PC for a bit…
I fear that the “no-one will have it” attitude is at work here, and as you say, with some simple loot rules this can be, at least moderated, if not prevented.
My (as opposed to my mate’s) guild loot rules are: (Note also, they are not pugs… they are GUESTS)
GUILD MEMBERS
2 main-spec items per raid
2 off-spec items per raid
Rule #1:
if a raid member has been fortunate enough to acquire their two items for the current raid, and a third (main spec) item drops – providing no one else in the raid rolls for the item the (lucky) member may then offer to sacrifice one main spec roll in the next raid in which they participate.
Rule #2:
should a member fill their entire raid quota of 2 main specs and 2 off specs items – they may only roll for an additional off-spec piece if no one else in the entire raid wants the item. ie. rather than have it disenchanted, it goes to a member who can use it.
Rule #3:
dual spec characters may roll for either spec, however they must nominate the specific spec they are rolling for at the commencement of the raid. dual specs have exactly the same eligibilities as pure specs. no more – no less.
Rule # 4:
should a specific class (ie tank) of gear type drop be prevalent, and two raid members have already received their quota of items for a raid, then a loot council shall preside on the distribution of the additional items. two possible outcomes are foreseen: a third item allocation will be awarded, or someone with a dual spec may roll.
Guest Players
one tiered piece per raid
two non tiered pieces per raid
Rule # 1:
should an additional item drop in which guest raiders have an interest, they may only roll if no other raid member rolls on that item.
My guild pugs one in a while for 25 man. In fact last week we killed KT for the first time with about 6 people pugged. It’s just we got good lot rules, and they are carefully enforced. One rule per run for main spec. So if something drops, first people who have not gotten anything yet in the run and need the item for main spec roll, if noone in that category rolls, then main spec who already got something can roll, if noone in that category rolls then offspecs can roll. If a BOP item drops then people who need for mains specs can roll, or it goes to guild bank ( no offspec rolls on that one). Loot leader had an addon that kept track of everything.
We apply these rules uni formally towards guildmates and pugs to be fair. We also ran that run over two days, but it was considered one run for loot purposes. So on the second day when we had 6 pugs with us, they all got at least one piece of loot if not more. So they were happy, and we cleared the instance. Although i was secretly jealous that some pieces that I could have gotten went to a pug, in the end i know it was all for the best, and everyone was happy.
Also, our loot leader made the pugs equip anything they got that was BOE to make sure they will wear it instead of selling it. They had to equip it and we would check so it’s there, not necessarily to keep running with it if it was not gemmed/enchanted. So we did not skimp out on any gear if anyone needed it.
hands down it is better to raid with “guests” then not to go at all. i dont think that the pugs should have any less chance at loot than anyone else (except for maybe an item that a guildie is farming if it drops). we do loot a bit different in our guild than some others… if it is main spec and we want it, we link what we will be replacing and the officers decide. if it is too close to decide who would benefit more from the item (ie… all the healers want it and all the healers currently have the same, or close to the same item) then there is a roll off. Some might think that this would leave a guest with no loot, but we have some pretty fair officers in our guild and i have never seen a guest leave without loot.
i may have a somewhat warped view of this since currently i am the guild resto shammy… meaning i rarely have competition for gear.
[…] without that Pugger, the raid wouldn’t have happened (Is it better to raid with pugs, than not to raid at all? ), thus grats to the Pugger… but that doesn’t mean I am not going to sulk like the […]